My chat with Toronto-based artist (and friend!) Leone McComas from my upcoming zine for Mixed Blood Manifesto was one of the earliest discussions I had for the project, preceding the pandemic. It was pretty casual (and hasn’t been edited for length), but there was some interesting ideas and thought-provoking bits I thought worth sharing.

 

Andrew: I think you were probably the first portrait I did (for this series)!

Leone: Yeaaaah! I remember when you were thinking about doing the series.

A: Yeah, it was a couple of years ago. I’ve been procrastinating, and one thing or another has come up… maybe to start, I’ll say this: You strike me as someone who thinks about these types of themes a lot when I think about your artwork. How do you identify, yourself?

Leone: It’s a really good question, it’s hard to peg down.

A: Yeah.

Leone: The reality is that it’s environmental. Even though I think about this a lot I think of it as a concept, as something more like a construct.

A: Right.

Leone: I think, for me it’s not my ultimate identity, it’s one of many factors. It’s a reality, it has context, it has impact, it does frame the way that people interact with me – and it doesn’t as well because people don’t usually realize I’m black haha

A: Yeah!

Leone: Or really, that I’m half black. So I think when you’re mixed race you’re already kind of used to floating between – or not floating, but it’s whatever other people can hold onto? You don’t necessarily have that ability to hold onto it? I’ve noticed that there are some mixed race people who solidly identify as being black. Part of me is like, I don’t know how.

A: Yeah.

Leone: But I think for myself there have been times where I’ve navigated being in a school that’s predominantly black, and I’ve also been in schools that were predominantly white and I was one of two black kids – and really just half haha

You know, it’s such a weird thing to say too – I mean can you really be ‘half’ black? I mean you’re a person of colour. But is there such a thing as being ‘half white’? And I feel like that is increasingly not a thing. Definitely increasingly not a thing.

I think the reality is it’s like, a lot of my life has been – and the reason why I did this series – I have some feelings about even identifying as black. Mostly because one – I just never liked the word. Not because I think it’s negative to be of African descent at all, it’s just – we’re not actually black. It’s just a made up term.

A: For sure, yeah it’s super interesting…it’s tough. In my experience, these conversations are or have been tricky to have with anybody who isn’t also mixed race, in a way. Because I feel like to your point, there are these distinctions that people make or have made for so long, and as things get ever more tumultuous, people really look for comfort in something that they can sort of – not to demean it – but almost lowest common denominator. Like they look to heritage or where they kind of fit in. So anyone who identifies as straight up ‘black’ or straight up ‘white’, you know – it’s kind of hard to talk about feeling a bit more fluid. Or floating – that was a good word you used. It’s really hard for them to grasp that.

But its also interesting because everyone I’ve talked to (for this project) with maybe two notable exceptions – everyone kind of has a similar vibe. I don’t know how else to say it. They kind of occupy this in between space and there’s a lot of code switching and a lot more flexibility almost from that experience. Growing up fitting into all these communities – or trying to.

When you were growing up – and now that I think of it, you’re the only person in this series that I painting who didn’t grow up in Canada, not that it matters – did you find growing up that your parents imparted values to you and your siblings that were along cultural lines? Does that make sense?

Leone: Mhm – I mean, yeah for sure. My mom told me a lot of stories about growing up in England. Well, growing up in England and then for Nigerians what happens if you get rebellious around your teenage years, as almost a rite of passage, you get sent back to Nigeria haha.

A: Whoa!

Leone: Haha yeah you’ll get sent to a boarding school or relocate back to Nigeria, and it’s kind of like – I think what happens, and the way Nigerian parents see it is like they’re first gen, they immigrate to the UK, or the US, and their kids are growing up ‘first world’, bougie, rebellious, picking up those western ways of living and then they send them back to be like “Ok, reality check” *laughs

Respect your elders, all the things we get away with, how we talk to our parents…I wouldn’t say it’s a cultural difference but the value of upbringing, and values like respecting elders and being involved in the workings of the house…just, I think a lot of its like character building.

A: Right.

Leone: So my mom would tell me a lot stories about how when she was a teenager she was sent back to Benin, and then she went to university, and did all this stuff. And so in a way there are these ideas – I haven’t been to Nigeria myself, but there’s things that are imparted. My mom was born in England, so for her she’s already almost a degree removed, but she is Nigerian.

The reason I bring it up is because I never really realized this, because I was always just like “Yeah I’m half Nigerian.” But my mom was born in England which means like my identity even as a British person is a little more complicated than I realize?

A: Yeah. I mean one thing I realize is that a lot of times I hear movements – even that I support – but like, people are fighting for minority rights, or BLM, people talking about how slavery and colonialism lives almost in their blood – like it lives on, it’s not something that just happened or disappeared. But for me, when I think of things from that perspective, if half of me maybe had ties to the slave trade or white colonial history, and the other half has a history of being oppressed or enslaved? I mean…I don’t think about it too much, because it doesn’t really bother me? But I do think it’s interesting to think about how people who are mixed reconcile those things. Because when you confront someone with that like “Oh, ok, so where do you think I stand as someone represented by ‘both camps’ historically”, nobody has an answer*. You know?

*Ed. – Obviously, this doesn’t affect my views where supporting equal rights and freedom from oppression is concerned. But I do think, in the interest of people owning the deeds of prior generations and how that relates to institutionalized systems of oppression it casts things in a very under-represented light.

I mean, generally I’m whiter than black to black people, and to anyone that isn’t visibly darker I’m just black. You know.

Leone: Yeah!

A: And you try to tell people like “Oh. Well it’s very easy for you to draw a line in the sand and say this is where you stand. But what about someone who kind of belongs or is placed in both areas?” It gets kind of knotted up.

But I will say, one of the things I’m kind of interested in learning more about is that it’s a unique perspective that people who are mixed race can bring to the table. Whether it’s just discussions with friends, or on a larger scale – because I feel like as the world gets more and more complicated, it’s a valuable perspective. I mean do you think that people who are mixed race or people who have that experience growing up – do you think that experience is something that is valuable where some of these conversations are happening? Where race is concerned in the larger scheme of things?

Leone: Mm – yeah, I think that there’s two things. One thing we need to be wary of, and one thing – a perspective that we have that really bridges worlds. And I think the first thing is that as mixed-race people, if you’re looking at it as a spectrum of like social…or, colourism, let’s say. Having lighter skin, having a parent who’s white, I always felt that it’s hard to navigate. Because while we can talk about being black the reality is we still have access or are seen differently – like there’s still a way that we’re able to navigate white circles.

A: For sure, yeah.

Leone: Even if we’re not actually able to fully ‘be white’ and be seen as white? Haha

A: I hear ya.

Leone: So I think it’s difficult because I think that’s something we need to try to be mindful of. The second thing is the fact that – for myself – having or being able to be in a family…ooh. I don’t even know how to describe this. I think there’s a bridging of worlds; what comes to mind is it’s incredible to have a connection, a familial connection to…like for you, you’re visibly identifiable as a person of colour, potentially being a black man. And you have familial connections to what people who identify as being black men see as ‘white and other’. So for yourself, you can’t actually – it’s hard to reconcile these conversation of ‘white people’ and still live with my parent who I dearly love and still use that language. You know what I mean? I can’t use that language, because it’s not other. I think the behaviours and the grievances are real. I’m not for that. But I will always be wary of anything that tries to get me to paint another group of people a certain way. Regardless of the emotional backing – we’re still dealing with people at the end of the day. And the same the other way around.

So it’s very funny, because it’s also what white people see as ‘other’, it’s very personal for me, like you have that connection. I mean it’s the same with your sister right? You know a black woman. And you now because she’s your family. So when people start talking about black women, it gets a bit…you know. It’s tricky to articulate you know? I can’t speak for you obviously.

A: No no, I think I understand where you’re going with it. The other crazy thing is, I don’t think I’ve spoken to anyone else who’s adopted, you know, but…both my parents are white. Haha so it’s like an added wrinkle. I mean not only am I…on a genetic level, for lack of a better term, and that’s not even an accurate way to describe it…not only do I have one black parent and one white parent, biologically, but I was adopted at birth and both my parents are white. My sister is also adopted, and she’s black.

It’s a really…in all of this I’m trying to find positive energy and give people a little more insight into what I think is an under explored section of the identity conversation. Just because I think there’s something that can be offered by being a bridge. That’s a word I’ve used a little bit as well – I think it’s a good word because it could really mean anything but it speaks to the potential.

Leone: I’d like to know what you want to share with your series, but I think first – I think there are definitely positives, but the season we’re in, the conversation needed to happen had to come from a black perspective. I think those voices needed to be heard, just because in the past it’s usually those in proximity to whiteness that get the microphone. But I actually really agree that there’s just a way that we’re experiencing the world that exposes – For me, there’s always going to be an agenda so our experiences expose things that are covered with blankets. I see a lot that the way that blackness is viewed in North America is very different from how I experienced in England and Holland. There’s a cultural lens that unless you are able to have access to both worlds, there’s no way you would be able to say “this is true or this is false” about the other – experiences being in both worlds becomes extremely valuable.

I’d like to know more about the positives, what change would you want to see or bring by sharing mixed race voices?

A: Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more with that last thing you said…I guess for me it comes from this place where I’ve always been drawn to things that are not, in a general sense, defined by what I’ll call ethnic heritage. To give a bit of context to that, growing up I had a very liberal, open-minded, progressive upbringing as you can imagine. They did think it was very important that I learn about black history; they got me a lot of books and anthologies written by slaves or about black history. The People Could Fly, To Be A Slave, things like that because they knew they couldn’t provide that for me. They went out of their way to make sure that I from a very young age could contextualize what still is pretty recent, fresh history. I mean, regardless of the centuries, institutionalized racism is something people a very much grappling with.

But they also let me kind of do my own thing. So like from a super young age, for example, I also became super obsessed with Japan. Whether it was because I was watching anime or whatever, I was just so into it, and they encouraged anything I was into. So I kind of grew up from a young age with a very broad, open slate. I was free to just kind of dive into whatever I was interested in. What that evolved into, because I didn’t have – I was raised in a small white town in Canada, adopted and raised by white parents – it’s not like I was exposed to the black monolith so to speak. Or what ‘living’ in black culture was like.

So in high school I just found myself drawn to things like…punk music. Or Hip hop – like hip hop, I always looked at it as more of a sub-cultural movement, and not solely just ‘black’ music. You know, it has visual arts, graffiti, there was breakdancing… It was very much, all the things I was interested in, skateboarding… there were areas of those things that could be very clique-y, and certainly some of them don’t have a very good track record where gender is concerned, for example. But for the most part I was welcomed. It was like ‘if you have these values, if you like this music or you like this art or you like skateboarding, then you are welcome here’.

ANYWAY. Fast forward to college and then adulthood, I feel more alienated or isolated when I’m confronted with these situations where people are kind of drawing lines in the sand where social issues around race are bubbling over at the surface. You know, what are safe spaces, where are certain people welcome – even in a place like Toronto, you know?

Leone: Mm, Yeah.

A: So, when you combine that with the Trump era, people are just getting so polarized! Politics, and the way people are viewing the world are getting soooo….there’s no wiggle room, there’s no grey area and it’s just becoming you’re either super woke, or you’re super ignorant. And there’s no room for anybody to be in between. And that has made me more and more anxious and uncomfortable as time goes on because I feel almost like I’m a living example of someone who is a literal grey area. Haha You know? Half white, half black. All of these things.

So, I did find it interesting, whether it was talking with you guys at shows, or just being out and about and talking with (fellow portrait subjects) Lucas or Kohji about these issues, there seemed to be for the most part a lot of commonalities. For people who were raised in southern Ontario and were mixed race – how they viewed these issues, you know. We can all agree that people of colour are disadvantaged, to say the least. But at the same time, in a lot of cases, and maybe it’s white privilege squeaking in, but we all had this point where it felt like a well-rounded view.

I know it’s naïve to say that it didn’t have bias, but it felt like when you would put any of us in a situation where this conversation would come up, particularly where we were the only people who were mixed race, it was almost like you take on a referee role? Haha

Leone: *laughs

A: You know? For me personally it’s like you were saying earlier. I know that I’m half white, and I know that how I feel inside doesn’t completely adhere to either white or black as a description, but for most people for most of life, they identify me as black. So even though I may have experienced a lot of the privileges that come from having white parents or having lighter skin, I still have the taste of the black experience as a black man. I’ve experienced the racism, I’ve experienced everything from micro-aggressions to being pulled over by a white police officer for no reason. And so I feel like that is usually a bit of a thought-provoking thing to bring up. Because people can’t call you on it, and people don’t think about people who are one foot in each world.

So I guess with this series, to finally answer your question, I’ve been rendering all these portraits in greyscale. And the idea is to remove colour from the equation and show how whether it’s someone who’s Chinese/Italian, or Japanese/Canadian, or Jamaican/Scottish or whatever the case may be, their values and perspective tends to be (and I’m generalizing here just because I haven’t met someone yet who’s extremely on one side or another) in that grey area. It’s less about polarized views, and more about an ability to see the spectrum, instead of just seeing things in black and white. So that’s kind of where I was coming from. And the hope pre-pandemic was to have a show and maybe even have a moderated round table discussion with the subjects. Because I feel like there are people who would be interested to hear this stuff. And it’s tough to try and communicate these ideas.

I mean we’ve been exposed to white art for generations and right now there’s this surging of institutions and galleries big and small want to showcase black voices, or people of colour. And all of it is great. I think those people deserve a spotlight, I just wanted to be like ‘there are people in the middle, that have both views’. Haha and I mean, not to put words in people’s mouths, or lead people with questions…I mean if someone I interviewed was straight up like “yeah I’m mixed race but I identify as black. Or Asian” that’s fine. There are no wrong answers, I just think there’s something positive in all of this. Something that can be extracted. And hopefully, in a gallery setting, where its not on Facebook or a message board or a rally where people are yelling at each other, there can be a bit more space for reflection. You know? People can look at these works, or read – I’d like to collect these conversations in a zine – hopefully it would give people a bit more of a dose of moderation and maybe even lead them to embrace a more empathetic response. I don’t know. That’s the goal.

Leone: Interesting.

A: hahaha does it makes sense? That was a lot of talking.

Leone: Yeah! I was introspecting because some of the earlier stuff you said, I have been thinking a lot about lately. Like dang, I had this interaction with someone once where we were going to a live show and I was like “Aw yeh, I love moshing!” and she was black, and she was like “Oh, I’ve never been to a punk show before” and I was just like “wwwwwwwu” haha…

A: Oh yeah!

Leone: You know these are experiences that…

A: People are missin’ out!

Leone: Not even missing out! I mean they have their own fun I’m sure, but I’m just like ultimately, we’ve had a lot of experiences that completely defy what it means to be black. And I think a lot of black people also have experiences that…one of the first things I kind of wanted to dispel, and maybe it’s not my place honestly, but my initial agenda in a way was just to be like “the thing that we define as being black, why do they have to be black.” Not even like, why does it have to be black, we should challenge this! But in my head, and from conversations I had with people, there was this way that people would negotiate their identity. They’d like things that didn’t fit into the black identity, and it made them go ‘what do I do with this’, it kind of exists outside the framework.

And that’s so fascinating, because ultimately everything you do is a black thing, because you’re doing it. Haha you’re defining it as being so, you’re having that experience.

I think for myself I didn’t really understand blackness from the American standpoint. And so it feels to me now like a little bit more of a resiliency?

A: Yeah.

Leone: I agree with the polarization stuff. But something I was thinking about is that in the US especially, the way I see it, the main objective of slavery and the main object of people that controlled the slave trade was to erase culture and erase any connection to identity. So there’s this removal. And so you’ve got generations of people who are very disconnected. The whole thing was to remove them so they weren’t able to practice any of the things they identified with culturally. And then they were given this identity as being ‘less than’.

And so the way I see it now is almost like being black in America is the identity of resistance, and obviously it’s way more complex than that. There are dimensions I don’t even have access to. But when people say that they’re black – it is in a way an identity in the US. And I think it can only really exist like that, in the US. Like it doesn’t…the same history and perspective, the framework of people looking in and people looking out, only really exists in that way in the US. They’ve exported it of course, through TV and movies. So people understand it to a degree. But it only can really exists as an identity identity there.

A: Yeah. That makes sense to me. So…it’s an interesting point. I’ll say that’s definitely what makes it difficult. It’s a very sensitive conversation, which Is why I think that I’ve…I’m sure you’ll remember back in the office I run my mouth a bit, I tend to think out loud and I’m sometimes not as considerate as I could be to how other people feel about all kinds of issues – but since we’re talking about this, this issue in particular. So what I’ve been trying to do as I do this series and thinking about it a bit more, is to be less combative about it. And be a little bit more…let go of the wheel and being like ‘look, I’m gonna rpesent how I feel about this, and I’m gonna talk to other people like-minded or not, that we all share these things.” We’re all mixed-race and we’re human beings. Haha you know that’s really it. But I’m trying to rpesent it in a way where people can take what they will from it rather than saying this way is right or this way is wrong. Because that’s kind of antithesis to the whole idea of it being less polarized.

And I guess the last thing I’ll say is, to the earlier part of what you were saying, is that I do feel like in the states which is kind of like a cultural juggernaut, they’re exporting these value through movies, media, all these avenues- but there’s sort of this monolith? The monolith of what black is. And there’s an aspect of this project where I put together a reading list, and a playlist, and a viewing list, of things that I can be like “here are things that I love for these reasons, and maybe you love ’em for the same reasons, or maybe you haven’t thought of them from this perspective”. Like there’s a lot of musicians, a recent example I can think of is Tyler, The Creator, where they win a Grammy in an ‘urban’ category and he’s like “I’m stoked, but also why is this even a thing” he’s like “I make pop music. Why do you have to have a separate category that you can like, relegate people to”. And when I think of Tyler, for better or worse (I think over his career he’s matured a lot), people like him and Pharrell, and even before this recent controversy Kanye West, they were kind of challenging these ideas of what it means to be a young black male.

You know? Here are the things I’m interested in, whether it’s fashion, skating…it doesn’t have to be the same thing, but in their own ways, they rebelled against what it means to be black.

Leone: Totally.

A: And in some cases it got them in trouble. Like Kanye, the way I interpreted his most fucking lunatic ramblings… a lot of times it almost seemed like through any mental health issues he may have been dealing with, he was saying “stop putting me in this category”. I’m my own category. I’m proud of this and this and this, but I don’t have to be what everyone wants me to be, or what everybody says this thing is. He took it in a direction I wouldn’t have, haha, but I mean the fact of the matter is a lot of these artists and musicians that at one point or another I looked up to or admired because they were using their platform to try and kind of, break this down a little bit?

Anyway, I leave that up to each individual to decide whether that’s good or bad but it really does reflect my experience. In my mind, we would find a way to all get along – obviously – but I don’t think that moving towards, and this sounds ridiculous to even say it, but like a post-race future means that people will lack identity and everything will be a mushy soup. People are always going to find a way to distinguish themselves, and I think that the arts – music, visual arts, theatre – that is something that people can connect through that in some ways has the ability to be removed from the larger historical context. If that makes sense.

Like up to this point people could define themselves by these structures or these collective myths that we believe in. Whether that has to do with race or gender, or class, and it’s not that these things don’t have real impact, but I think that as we’re seeing with gender, it’s dissolving a bit. It’s becoming more fluid – at least in more progressive parts of the world and progressive circles in those places. I would just like to see people maybe become more comfortable with decoupling from how we’ve defined each other historically. I just feel it’s a more balanced and empathetic way of doing things.

I mean I also realize one of the things that makes it difficult is that, and this is a conversation for another time, but appropriation. Or washing over what makes us unique. But I dunno. I mean I think that all the people I’ve talked to kind of occupy that space already and I don’t think any of them are bland people that don’t have creative ideas and values. So it’s gonna be interesting to see what happens and how people respond when I’m eventually able to hold the exhibition. Get the conversations tarted.

Leone: Yeaaah!

A: I really appreciate you taking the time – this was great. This went way longer than intended, I said I wasn’t going to take too much of your time haha

Leone: not at all, honestly I feel like…the series I was doing as well took me into a very deep hole. It’s nice to know someone else is exploring it. The hard thing for me is that it’s being conscious that I’m navigating a grey zone and having any kind of opinion…in a way I’m allowed to have one, and in another way I’m not?

A: haha yeah

Leone: It was like a vice grip. How do I talk about this? So yeah, I really appreciate this conversation. In a way I want to be sensitive to these conversations, I don’t want any of my own biases getting in the way of a real conversation, but at the same time that negotiation is happening. How do you talk about these things, and how do you bring life experiences and your own perspectives to things? Even when you’re talking to someone who may or may not even share those views, how do you share that story?

A: It’s tough.

Leone: So complicated.

A: Absolutely. It’s tough to navigate. Hopefully I’ll be able to put something together, and you can come out, and with any luck I can even put together a round-table chat.

Leone: For sure. I’m excited!

A: It goes in waves how involved I’ve been engaging with people about this, so I’m excited to get back to it.

Leone: Do it at your own capacity, but get it out there!

A: Alright! I’m gonna let you go. Thanks again, I’m glad we were able to set this up. I’ll talk to you soon!

Leone: Bye for now!