A conversation with Curator and Creator Darren Leu from my upcoming zine Mixed Blood Manifesto.
Andrew: Not to colour your answers before we even start talking…
Darren: No pun intended on that! *laughing
A: What I’ve noticed is that um, I think that everybody can agree that politics and social issues – things are becoming really polarized, right? Like, there are less people who are moderate and in the middle and more people being pushed to either side, for better or for worse, on the left and the right.
Darren: Very much so, yeah.
A: …And interestingly, I am feeling more and more in the middle. I’m feeling more alienated by both sides. And one of the reasons for that is I think that as someone who is mixed race and also adopted – by white parents –
Darren: I did not know that!! What?
A: Yeah! Yeah, So I’ve had this very interesting experience, where I have grown up maybe on the inside identifying a little – or I mean maybe not identifying, but having more of the white experience. Growing up in small town Ontario with white parents, not really exposed to what one might consider like, black culture, ethnic culture.
Darren: Gan (Gananoque) isn’t exactly the portrait of…
A: Exactly! But on the outside, to everybody – I just appear black. Even though, you know, I’ve got light skin and I’m mixed-race, I’m a ‘black guy’. SO I’ve also lived, to an extent, the black experience, because…
Darren: It’s been inflicted on you.
A: Yeah! Exactly. So….um, anyway, it’s resulted in this sort of interesting worldview I think. That’s a little bit more moderate, because I find there are people who are extreme on one end, categorizing people in a bad way, and then on the far other side there’s the marginalized people, who…I feel…very frequently are misguided – I understand why they react the way they do – but they are doing very similar things on the other end of the spectrum. They’re well-meaning, but they’re still creating division, if that makes sense?
Darren: Yeah, Absolutely.
A; So all of that is to say, you know, some of the other people I’ve talked to like Lucas, Kohji, all mixed-race – we tend to align a lot when it comes to politics and social issues. Because there’s a lot of things we feel less attached to and less emotionally attached to along these lines. SO.
I’ll let you talk, now. Maybe we can start this off by explaining what your background is?
Darren: Yeah! Soo, both parents from Guyana.
A: K.
Darren: Um, Guyana, even from the get go, Guyana’s really unique that like a lot of West Indies places it’s primarily black, Asian, and Indian…
A: Right
Darren: but at the time my parents were growing up the British rule stopped in 1978, and then them leaving the country shortly afterwards, there was a lot of segregation between the Indians that kept to themselves and tried to do their own culture there, and the Asians that were usually wealthier and ran businesses, and then the blacks that were working the majority of the time – along with the indigenous population. So my dad, who is black/Portugese/and Chinese from time ago –
A: Already super mixed!
Darren: Yeah! Super mixed. He was like the outcast as well, too – he was always called ‘red man’ in Guyana, so he was already dealing with a whole bunch of racial identities, and my mom is Black-Indian. And again, Indians and Blacks did not mix, so like her dad – she didn’t really know her dad… yeah, so there was already a lot of tensions from that. And my dad has a lot lighter skin. My mom’s pretty dark. So anyways, they got together and they moved to Canada after they found out that they had me. So I don’t know! I mean, I’m clearly a light-skinned black guy, but uh…growing up, you know my dad could pass – he lost his accent quick! He kind of had to. Like he was profiled pretty often and didn’t get respected at work. So he was able to hold a conversation kind of looking more …more Mediterranean white, if anything. Until they find out ‘oh this is your son? He doesn’t look anything like you because he’s so much darker than you.’ …I don’t know where I was going with that. Haha so – black in public, and at school, but at home there was a such a different identity. It was more…culture.
A: Lot of code switching going on.
Darren: Yeah. Yeah it was different hats for it. And like it was bad! When someone identifies you so much as you’re just this black kid – it’s embarrassing sometimes saying like “yeah, that’s my dad”, “whaddya talking about your dad’s white – you have an afro, and your dad is white”. It’s so weird to explain that “no, he’s black, Chinese, and Portugese, like, that’s why he looks like that, and I look like this”. I always felt ashamed of that.
A: No no man, it’s good. It’s interesting. I had a similar experience, I mean – I’ve always felt pretty – um – pretty confident in where I stand on the spectrum, for whatever reason. I’m sure we could talk about it for hours to get to the bottom of it but there definitely is an element of having to explain to people, constantly, especially having both parents be white …
Darren: Yeah…
A: Like we go on family vacations – particularly, we go to Florida or southern states and it doesn’t compute. You know, I have a younger sister and people would like identify us as two separate parties. Like it was just impossible that that was a thing that could happen. Um, and you know I think it bothered me when I was a kid but then uh, it helped sort of shape my identity I think as someone who is separate from ‘ethnic’ identity. So on the one hand I think because both my parents are like white Canadian, ‘Ontarian’, uh, there’s a lack of what most people would consider to be an ethnic cultural upbringing…
Darren: Gotcha.
A: You know like there isn’t a…certainly there was recipes my mom made, stuff like this, but none of it was like, what somebody expects when they’re speaking to someone who belongs to a minority group.
Darren: Yeah. Huh.
A: But on the other hand, I also was drawn to things like skateboarding, or punk music and hip hop music, or communities that to me at least in southern Ontario felt like they were all so detached from ethnicity.
Darren: Curious!
A: And gender, to an extent. You know, that one’s debatable, but it was for the most part – it didn’t matter what you looked like or who you were if you were into skateboarding or into the same kind of music or the same kind of ideas? Then you’re in.
Darren: You’re in.
A: Yeah. So, similarly now, as an adult, that’s kind of how I approach these social issues and it bothers me that even people who are ‘liberal’ still are SO attached to these ideas. And it really informs and colours (again, no pun intended) their approach to these issues! So I guess the next question that I’d have to you is, as someone who lives in a city like Toronto – and you’ve been here for some time –
Darren: Yeah, 10 years..
A: Do you feel like….do you feel more or less comfortable now, let’s say like the last couple years Trump gets elected, and Ford – there’s been this sort of swell, and like extreme polarization – socially conservative people taking power and there’s like a reaction from people who are maybe more progressive.
Darren: Like a reactive swing.
A: Yeah. do you feel more or less comfortable now than when you were younger – just sort of navigating through the world as someone who is like, you know…you kinda, maybe you have to chameleon at times, and you sort of are at the crossroads or sitting on the fence of all of these distinctions.
Darren: Yeah. Well that’s the weird thing! Like, growing up in Milton was like painfully white, so they might have called me black, but I grew up listening to the punk music, moshing, like, yeah, identifying more with white Canadian culture – so it was almost easier to navigate that at a younger age without this political thing in your face from both sides, because it was easier to say “yeah I’m a black kid raised around white people”. It was still frustrating, that they HAD to identify it – like it was so much easier in print. Like, this is how I can classify you, and that was it.
A: Yeah.
Darren: And now like in Toronto, with all these social situations going on – it’s that same kind of tug and pull. Like I can appreciate and understand what’s going on for like what small town mentalities are going through, and the white population and conservatives versus liberals, and I’m being torn in two different ways and being in the arts as well… there’s such an emphasis on ‘we have to help the marginalized, equity-seeking groups’. Which is great. But then it’s, the conversation’s now more classified and you’re this and that’s going to be it. It’s ‘what is your take on this as this. ONLY this.” Like, “you’re a black person, what is your take on society as ONLY a black person”. “what is your commentary on blah blah as ONLY this”, and…wearing different hats, depending on who you’re talking to. Like am I talking to a group of older, sophisticated, educated white people that have authority…or control or a granting council or program? Because that hat is completely different than if I’m talking to a group….it’s so weird to say, maybe edit this out haha…but like, actual people?
A: Hahahaha
Darren: Hahaha like I don’t know.
A: No I know what you mean.
Darren: You know? Like it’s intimidating sometimes to me. Where I might not have that ‘black’ dialog, not being raised around black people – aside from my family members, who didn’t identify as black! They were just west indies! They were Guyanese people. That were Indian, black, and….I didn’t have any Chinese family members, but they weren’t black. So now I’m having these conversations about these issues, and I don’t feel like…I should chime in sometimes? Or… I’m doubting myself if I can? Because at the end of the day we were identified as blacks. Like no matter what, we do have an opinion on this whole thing.
A: Mhm.
Darren: But it’s intimidating…thinking that you can’t chime in, because you’re not ‘fully’ black.
A: yeah you’re not black enough.
Darren: Yeah! Black enough. Yeeeeahh.
A: And, that’s an interesting point to touch. Because I think that my feeling is that I have started to feel less comfortable in recent years – for that exact reason, you know? It feels like up until Trump, people were fighting for fluidity. Like, I think gender is a great example. Because still people, generally, in the circles we’re rolling in, people still feel very strongly about that. They feel that people don’t necessarily need to be categorized as one or the other, there’s sexuality, there’s gender, there’s all these different things, and it’s a spectrum. But, people still have a very hard time – those same people – applying that same thing to race. Which sounds ridiculous and comical initially, when you think of like, Rachel Dolezal or somebody who is distinctly one thing, and wants to identify as another. And then there’s even an episode of Atlanta where Donald Glover – there’s like that fake ad or news story where it’s like that black kid who identifies as a 30-something white man. It’s all well and good and funny, but….
Darren: It still makes a good commentary on this, though.
A: Yeah! But I think that for people like us though, we are living that! And people… like, there are gonna be more and more people who are mixed race, not less, right?
Darren: Huh. Racially fluid.
A: Yeah! And so like, you and I have a lot of similarities in that um, you know we were raised in predominantly white environments as people who were not visibly white.
Darren: Yeah.
A: And I think that… and I think that there’s something there. I guess what I’m trying to do with these interviews is sort of….show people hopefully, who strongly identify as ONE thing, that….you know, I don’t have a problem with people who identify strongly as one thing at all. But what I do have a bit of a problem with, or what makes me uncomfortable, is when that is like the lens through which you view the world.
Darren: Yeah.
A: And I think that it’s become more and more uncomfortable, as people realize that “oh, well wait…okay, we’ve figured this out. Somehow, we’ve attained equality” and the next step becomes like, ok, how do we unteach ourselves to identify so strongly as these things. Um so, I don’t know, it’s weird. There’s definitely a few people I’ve talked to who feel a longing to identify with their, compartmentalized genetic… “I’m half this and half this, and I feel it’s really important that I understand both things”. And then there’s other people who do not care. I belong to the latter group. I don’t have a problem wherever anybody belongs, but do you feel – is that something that you felt strongly about? Especially growing up in Milton – did you feel that it drove you to want to – “oh everyone else is doing it, you know, black people identify with this group”…have like all of this heritage, and there’s white people, and Asian people, and you’re just sort of like “where do I fit in?” Did it make you want to find stuff out and fit in one of those groups more or less? For me – I don’t want to put words in your mouth – I kind of went the opposite direction.
Darren: Yeah.
A; I started caring like less and less, because I don’t know – it made me uncomfortable, to be honest. I didn’t want to compartmentalize myself like that.
Darren: But when someone would ask you, how do you respond? Because I envy your…uh…disinterest in that. Your ability to let go and say I don’t care. Cause that’s not the upbringing for myself. Like…
A: I think part of that is because I was adopted. Which is not a slight against my parents, at all, but like – it gave…
Darren: A reason for it?
A: Yeah! And my parents were white people living in a predominantly white community, so there wasn’t really I don’t think – they were very… they made sure that I understood black history. Like from a very young age they were like giving me books – like written by slaves. They told me about the history of black people in North America because they felt that it was important and it was their responsibility regardless of the fact they were white. But I think that just naturally, there’s things that they’re not passing on – Like, they don’t feel marginalized, so they aren’t trying to make something live on in me. Like “ok, we want you to educate yourself as much as you want, but we don’t want to tell you that you NEED to be this way.” And again, that’s not a slight against your parents, of course – I’ll let you speak now….instead of just….going on…
Darren: Well, growing up, like by the time I reached grade ten, there were like sprinkles of other black people finally. And uh there’s this guy Ryan – huge tall guy, basketball player, really cool – I wanna say reads more black? Darker than my complexion, more afrocentric characteristics, and it wasn’t until his little sister came to high school too, and she’s like…white. Same name, and we’re all like whoa – what the fuck’s going on here? And he’s adopted by two white parents, living in Milton, that came to the high school and hid that fact completely. It was like a year afterwards, that we all identified this other black person now as this cool tall black guy that plays basketball, and that’s who he is. And it wasn’t until like “oh shit, you have two white parents and a white little sister” like…he always encouraged the fact that he’s black, despite the fact that he might not have been fully raised that way.
A: That’s so interesting to me.
Darren: Yeah, yeah! And I did the same thing too like I wasn’t growing up with black people, I was growing up with other Guyanese people when I was not in school, because otherwise it was just white all the time. And it was mainly because like white people would say “hey Darren, what’s your family’s accent like” that I’d be like ‘fuck, I don’t know! Do I have to force a fake accent?’ Dude. Or they’d ask me some stupid stereotypical black thing. So because they were inflicting this identity on me, and saying these things and….you feel so…uh… not genuine, or uh, not of value. It’s almost like you’re entertaining them. And if you don’t entertain them, then you don’t have anything to offer them. So it’s kinda like I had to do research into it, to appease these people to say like “no, whatever you’re identifying me as, I AM that.”
A: Totally.
Darren: Like, let me tell you about curried goat and dahl, let me tell you about fuckin hip hop culture, because I’m like the only source for that. And that…I played soccer growing up, I didn’t know anything about basketball, and it was like THE black sport, and I was there with Ryan this poor guy…super nice, he’s into basketball and somehow more into ‘black culture’ and uh…yeah he was playing that same card. And then it was so strange and interesting, because if anything he hyped up even more upon the realization that he doesn’t have any roots.
A: You get a little social currency, as a kid, with that stuff. You know, everybody wants to find something that makes them cool, and if you’re the only thing…
Darren: The rarity of you is that much more in demand. Which is interesting too, because I was such a ugly, reject loser kid-
A: AWWW don’t be so hard on yourself hahaha
Darren: OH NO man, if you saw me…real with acne, braces…
A: You were just a late bloomer.
Darren: Real late bloomer. 4’8 until grade 11 psh..
A: Just blossomed into this handsome young man.
Darren: Uh…yeah, I was into anime and comics too…
A: Yeah ME TOO! See that’s what I mean, like….
Darren: But that’s not the culture that people put on you, and you can’t share that…even if I was white and I was into all that, I would still be a reject nerd.
A: Kids are the worst man.
Darren: Kids are fuckin’ horrible. Back then…It seems to be easier to find your niche now and be able to be accepted.
A: Yeah.
Darren: Maybe not.
A: The internet. And I mean, we are also in a big city.
Darren: Yeah. We both didn’t grow up here, but even like when Tong (Artist Tong Son Chen), they went to ESA and they had the abilities to go to schools that were more attuned to arts, or dance or music…that’s beautiful during puberty haha. That’s such a horrible fucking time, and to have peers…Anyway, I wish I didn’t care. Like I cared too much. To the point where it probably made me segregate myself even further from developing actual relationships. Cause I was just this token character, that tried so hard to be what they thought was what I should be.
A: Yeah.
Darren: Which just left me not knowing who the fuck I was. Or whatever.
A: It’s heavy stuff man.
Darren: Yeah!
A: You know what though? You touched on an interesting way of summarizing it. I don’t want to take too much more of your time, but I think that ah, regardless of whether people genuinely want to learn more about their respective heritage as mixed-race people or not, I think that… I predict that it will become more of an issue in the coming years. But I think that there are more and more, especially in these big city centres, especially because there are more people that are mixing – there are so many more interracial families in these environments producing interracial children, and like there is pressure from society at all levels to not be that thing. Even though the sort of common progressive narrative is that we should be more flexible and that all of these things are spectrums. So, again I guess my goal with some of this stuff is to just bring that perspective more to the forefront. Because I mean, even recently – I listen to CBC constantly and it’s so rare that they touch on this area.
Darren: Yeah!
A: Like it’s always about a specific marginalized community, and it’s about diaspora, it’s about heritage, it’s about how do we respect this – and for me, I think there needs to be a balance. Like I think it needs to be like ah – to not focus on that isn’t to disrespect it, it’s just probably healthier in the long run to allow people, as long as we’re not hurting anyone, to do their thing. To not force people to fit into these categories.
Darren: Exactly. You’re cramming people into shapes.
A: It’s weird, yeah.
Darren: You’re almost forcing…
A: And I think that I’m all for providing equal access and opportunity to all people, regardless of gender, race those types of things…
Darren: For sure!
A: But I think that um, I don’t know how to say it. I think it’s really hard for people to let go of – if you belong to a marginalized community, and you’ve grown up feeling taken advantage of, or oppressed, then it forces you more and more into that corner. Where the lowest common denominator for your identity is other people that look like you, that come from where you come from, maybe it’s like your family…so I get that. But I don’t know man, people will always find new groups. We’re social animals. Like music, like hip hop, like art, like skateboarding – those things, youth movements are always gonna find those things that allow them to define themselves OUTSIDE of what everyone wants to label them as. I think that when people have a fear of losing something – which I understand, even though that isn’t really my experience because I already started just not having that stuff – I just want people to be less scared about it. Haha and I know that’s sooo easy to say and hard to do, but it’s just like – we’re out here. There are people out here that fit all along the spectrum of wanting to fit into an ethnic group, but again – this is a sweeping generalization and is just based on my own conversations – people who are mixed-race have a very valuable perspective, in that they’ve either grown up with racial ambiguity or code switching or chameleoning just to survive – or they genuinely have a very grey view of the world and all these issues, which I think can be very helpful.
Darren: Could be helpful, could be…isolating.
A: Enh!
Darren: Haha yeah we’re definitely far away from it though. Cause as you said with those different groups, music, fashion, and whatever else. At least, those are hats you can take off again. Like being a part of these groups…that’s just it. Like I would love to live in a world where these identities just didn’t exist. Gender, race…it shouldn’t matter. It doesn’t define who you are. The interests, these are the groups that you can align yourself to and we’re definitely going down that road. But you’re probably right that it’s gonna get worse before it gets better. Or better is not even a thing, like it doesn’t exist. But. I dunno. In our lifetime? Definitely not. I would love to be able to see what that world is gonna be like, because it’s going to be dramatically different than what this world is.
A: Totally man. Well, I feel like I got some good stuff. Thanks for your time!
Darren: Thanks for letting me participate and share.
A: Yeah man no problem!
Darren: This was definitely the first I’ve ever reflected on this.
A: Hopefully it wasn’t too traumatizing dredging stuff up. Haha honestly, I think about this shit like on a daily basis. And not always in like an anxiety-inducing way, just in a way where like…*sigh…I dunno, something will always set me off. Like “oh I wish this space was more safe for black people” I’m like “well, am I black? Because I feel perfectly safe here. Is that because I’m white on the inside?“ Because I appreciate both sides of the coin? It’s just this whole thing, where almost anything can set me off about it. So I just want to get this conversation out there.
Darren: It’s true man!! Even at like, Leone’s (artist Leone McComas, also featured in this series) opening…
A: Perfect example.
Darren: I’m at the bar and it might not be anything whatsoever, but why do I not feel…included. I usually play the whole “how many non-whites can you count game” wherever I go. It’s so unconscious…I’m like “oh, 1.” Or I’m at an airport and why am I still playing these games for?
A: Last question – do you ever feel…are you ever able to detach from it? Do you find yourself, I’ll give you an example: sometimes I’m driving and, you know, I’ve never gotten any fine in my life, but the few times I’ve been pulled over, I will switch from not even thinking about to like…I’m sitting there and it will just hit me like “oh shit. I’m not a white person.” Whereas I think there are people who are conscious of that, they have no choice, just at all times. I mean I kind of consider myself lucky that I’m able to slip out of that. Usually it’s somebody else that snaps me back into it. Like I’m not walking around thinking about it until somebody else puts me in that situation. So do you feel like you are….like when you’re by yourself, you know…are you constantly thinking about it, or does it take an outside catalyst to make you be like “oh shit – I’m not white.” Or “I’m not fully black” like you’re talking about with the gallery experience.
Darren: Oh man. I think it’s easier to say when I’m not thinking about it. I think about it all the time. It was just earlier today I was watching an episode of the Simpsons and thinking like “oh look at the black characters on this” or like that whole Apu situation I’m like “this is just always on my mind.” I’ve been pulled over so many times. Milton was super racist. Like I got pulled over 19 times. One ticket.
A: That’s crazy. I got ‘pulled over’ for skateboarding in Oakville once.
Darren: WHAT
A: It was crazy.
Darren: Oakville’s intense.
A: I wasn’t even…it was like, in the morning. No pedestrians around. I wasn’t like, intoxicated, I wasn’t wobbling, I was just skateboarding and these guys pulled me over and they were like ‘what are you doin?’ and I was like ‘I’m just going home man!’ hahaha
Darren: The only times I don’t think about it are like when I’m out of the country. I can’t even say in Europe, but central America it’s not on my mind whatsoever. The intimidation factor isn’t there, it’s just everyone’s in-between there, or at least it feels that way. And if they don’t feel that way, it’s not a black person that thinks it’s African American culture, it’s just a black person living in a latin American country. They’re afro-latin or whatever. And those are the only times I feel so detached from my own racial anxiety. Otherwise it is like always somewhere on my mind. Especially like, dating a white girl too!
A: Oh yeah.
Darren: walkin the streets…
A: Dude, we could fill up a whole other interview with that. I didn’t watch Get Out for the longest time. Then I did watch it…and I enjoyed it…but there was parts of that movie where I was like, I didn’t think about it before watching it but “oh yeah, I’ve had that experience” but didn’t think about it or process it that way. Just meeting parents, not even THINKING about it until…I just think it’s important to note. To tell people it’s like “that’s the experience”.
Darren: Until it’s not anymore.
A: Yeah. It’s good man. I’m happy to explain to people. But I think that all my friends and the people I enjoy spending time with the most are more naturally…who don’t seem to need to categorize that. And a lot of those people I met through art and music and stuff. So.
Darren: We’re all freaks!
A: Yeah! Thanks man. I will see you soon.
